What’s wrong with Epiphone and some online retailers?

[Dennie]

What’s wrong with Epiphone and some of our major online retailers?
I see lots of online hype regarding the Epiphone Les Paul enspired by Gibson line.

There’s lots of comparison reviews like; “Are they as good as a Gibson?” Etc.

Many online retailers post mostly 5 star reviews with little to say objectively that can help one decide to buy or not.

The only advantage of buying online versus a local shop are convenience, selection and payment options. So buying online makes honest critical reviews indispensable when purchasing sight unseen instruments but we aren’t getting much of that.
Most local shops that I patronize do a basic setup before their instruments go out the door. Mostly because if a guitar doesn’t play nice or sound good it doesn’t get sold.

In many cases these local shops do it while you wait. They check and more importantly “set” the string height and dial in the intonation on electrics and “set” the proper neck relief. Of course you also get to try out the exact instrument you are considering a purchase on so you get to see immediately what the problems are if any that might exist before you buy.
You get none of that with an online purchase unless you pay extra.

I get it.
We buy these guitars because we don’t want to spend $5K and up for the real thing or need a beater so we don’t loose or damage a more expensive guitar out giging. Some have other reasons, those are mine.
When you buy one of these you have to understand what they are and what they are not. If you’re a beginner and don’t know the difference you most likely will be happy with this instrument but they are nothing close to the more expensive comparable models they are patterned after except for in the looks department. In that respect Epiphone did a good job in copying the original.

In the last month I purchased two inspired by Gibson Epiphone Les Pauls and not much has changed from the first one.

First one I purchased was a smokehouse standard 60s and then a black custom.
I own several other Epiphones along with 20 other guitars.
What I discovered in these last two Epi’s is that a basic Epiphone factory setup appears to be virtually nonexistent on these guitars.
Overall the guitars look nice but the playability just isn’t there.

The old saying “you get what you pay for” is never more true than in this instance but for the money I would expect more from Epiphone.
These guitars do have fairly good bones to start with but it takes considerable effort to make the guitar play like it should. These two guitars had sharp fret ends and both nuts that were cut too high. The strings that come with the guitar are also complete junk. Most say that’s just to be expected so add an additional $15 for strings before you play. The strings they it came with had nicks and gouges underneath like they had been played a lot.

I spent a several of hours cleaning up and polishing all the sharp fret ends, adjusted string height and intonation and that helped some.

The nut still needs to be cut lower and I’ll do that in the next few days when I get the time.

In addition several of the tuning machines seem to have considerably slack in them so I’ll need to change those out.

The good;
There wasn’t any fret buzz so it is basically a “playable” guitar out of the box. Playable but not real good like it should.

The finish is good and the guitar overall looks nice. Only blemish “QC/QA” issue in its construction is at the bottom of the guitars where the neck meets the body. There’s a small bulge where the binding wasn’t filed/smoothed down properly but it isn’t too noticeable.

The electronics are good except for the pickup switch. The sound is also very good coming out of the guitar as the pickups are surprisingly great!

Overall the Les Paul Gibsons I have owned were very slick smooth playing instruments critically setup from the factory before they were shipped. The Epiphone doesn’t have that and doesn’t feel like that. It’s just not the polished ready to play guitar like it’s more expensive big brother and that’s probably to be expected given the difference in price.

If you can live with that and don’t mind paying extra for a “complete” setup and you don’t have $5k for a Gibson then you should be generally happy with this guitar.
But understand that a full and complete setup isn’t really optional, it’s a must so be prepared to pay extra for that if you can’t do it yourself.

Unless the setup was much better, for another 4-5 hundred bucks you can get a lower end Gibson or something more comparable that I think overall would be a much better investment.

I will probably never buy another Les Paul by Epiphone inspired by Gibson.
The main problem is a lack of a basic setup to standard specifications from the factory and if they show up wrong or out of spec at the retailer they should be fixed but in many cases this doesn’t happen. Most local shops take care of that.

We are not talking about a tailored setup here just a factory spec check/setup.
As you know there are standard baseline measurable specs for pickup height, string height, neck relief, nut height, sharp frets etc.
Those standard factory specs should already be set in the guitar and they are not at least on the two I just bought as well as on others I have purchased from a certain online retailer.

Here is what I “think” could be happening in these cases;

Epiphone sets the guitar up to specs and ships it out, those specs in the guitar “will” change by the time the guitar gets to the states because of climate/humidity changes especially where sharp frets show up.
As the green wood/neck starts to move and shrink slightly due to these changes the metal frets do not move. This results in sharp fret ends on the neck.
The point is this;

Epiphone may have and probably did set them up to specs but when they arrive in the states they are now a somewhat different guitar because of the change in climate and that’s normal and to be expected. As a result some will have sharp fret ends, some without neck relief etc etc.

When that happens they should fix it back to proper specs before it is shipped out to the customer but that isn’t happening.

 

[BGood]

I get it.

The old saying “you get what you pay for” is never more true than in this instance but for the money I would expect more from Epiphone.

It’s just not the polished ready to play guitar like it’s more expensive big brother and that’s probably to be expected given the difference in price.

If you can live with that and don’t mind paying extra for a “complete” setup and you don’t have $5k for a Gibson then you should be generally happy with this guitar.

... because of the change in climate and that’s normal and to be expected. As a result some will have sharp fret ends, some without neck relief etc etc.

It is not a GIbson and it is not Gibson prices, so ...

 

[Darkness]

You sound very convinced that guitars should roll off the assembly line perfect. It just isn't so, not even for a Gibson.

I've bought 3 Epiphone Les Pauls, a Les Paul Special, a Casino, and a Riviera over the last 2 years. None of them had any real trouble. I quickly swapped strings,, set them all up myself, cleaned all the grime off the fret boards, and haven't had a problem since. No sharp frets, no nut work needed other than removing burs. Out of those 6 guitars the only problem that exists is the Casino switch is sloppy and will rattle in middle position. I'll replace it eventually.

Maybe you're just unlucky.

I do wish shops near me would set up guitars as they come in. I tried supporting them but they don't bother making their instruments work well, especially used ones. I've literally seen used guitars missing strings at local shops for sale "as is". If local shops had good selection and took some level of care of guitars I'd never buy online.

 

[Paruwi]

You sound very convinced that guitars should roll off the assembly line perfect. It just isn't so, not even for a Gibson.

well I found a brand / factory who get it close to 100%
So it is possible - just not at factories who do 1000 or more guitars a day
with only few long-term employees

I've bought all the 16 guitars from this brand 'unseen' and online, some were used,
some were brand new.
The smaller dealers here actually do a setup and some of the guitars were not much out of tune when they arrived.

Those smaller dealers mostly do a better price than the BIG-retailers

 

[imnotcreative]

As far as i know the shop you buy it from is responsible for a setup on every guitar they sell, also inspecting it on any defects. That is in the contract the shop has with the manufacturer. The manufacturer can do a basic setup in the factory but after it leaves the climate controlled factory the manufacturer has no control over it. Especially when it has to get shipped overseas.
String height at the nut is often a little higher because the manufacturer cannot anticipate on who will buy the instrument. Slide players most likely want their strings to sit a little higher than other players.
The cheap strings on Epiphones are most likely just put on to keep some tension on the neck to prevent it from doing unwanted things like warping and they probably expect them to get changed out immediately because they know they will rust when shipped in a container overseas for over a month. So why put on expensive strings if they will just rust? The bumps and gauges underneath the string might very well have happened during shipping in the container. The reachstackers used in the harbour to move the 40'' containers about often drive relatively fast over bumpy terrain(i have done some work in the harbor) tThe drivers don't really care if it gets shaken around, to them it's more important they unload and load the ship on time, each day it takes longer will cost their company thousands in fines if the ship can't leave on time. It is up to the company that loads the container to make sure everything is put in so that nothing can move about during transport.

Oh and on my Gibsons i still had to do some adjustments. On most of them the shop i bought it from did a regular setup, but my LPstd 50's that i bought at a big box store i had to do a setup myself including filing down the nutslots a bit.

I expect to having to do a setup when i buy a guitar. Even if i buy it from a shop about an hour drive away from where i live i expect having to a setup when i get it in. Since i live below sea level and with a lot of water around if i buy from a shop more inland i know for a fact i have to do some work, even after they have done a perfect setup. The air around here is more humid than it is inland so the neck will move a bit.

 

[JamesStrawberry]

I do wish shops near me would set up guitars as they come in. I tried supporting them but they don't bother making their instruments work well, especially used ones. I've literally seen used guitars missing strings at local shops for sale "as is". If local shops had good selection and took some level of care of guitars I'd never buy online.

where I live shops will set up and replace strings on EVERY guitar that comes in, no matter if its brand new or heavily used and abused. Though, with this, their prices are automatically bumped up $40 from the actual value... but you are getting an immediate setup and string up so... yeah.

Edit: They do the setup after purchase, so if you don't wanna pay the extra money you DO have the option of paying the base price, though occasionally if your a regular they give you a large discount (like 50% off any guitar you buy that day) given I do lessons there and come back every week I usually get that discount most weeks. This doesnt include commissions, of course.

 

[Noodling Guitars]

What’s wrong with Epiphone and some of our major online retailers?
I see lots of online hype regarding the Epiphone Les Paul enspired by Gibson line.

There’s lots of comparison reviews like; “Are they as good as a Gibson?” Etc.

Many online retailers post mostly 5 star reviews with little to say objectively that can help one decide to buy or not.

The only advantage of buying online versus a local shop are convenience, selection and payment options. So buying online makes honest critical reviews indispensable when purchasing sight unseen instruments but we aren’t getting much of that.
Most local shops that I patronize do a basic setup before their instruments go out the door. Mostly because if a guitar doesn’t play nice or sound good it doesn’t get sold.

In many cases these local shops do it while you wait. They check and more importantly “set” the string height and dial in the intonation on electrics and “set” the proper neck relief. Of course you also get to try out the exact instrument you are considering a purchase on so you get to see immediately what the problems are if any that might exist before you buy.
You get none of that with an online purchase unless you pay extra.

I get it.
We buy these guitars because we don’t want to spend $5K and up for the real thing or need a beater so we don’t loose or damage a more expensive guitar out giging. Some have other reasons, those are mine.
When you buy one of these you have to understand what they are and what they are not. If you’re a beginner and don’t know the difference you most likely will be happy with this instrument but they are nothing close to the more expensive comparable models they are patterned after except for in the looks department. In that respect Epiphone did a good job in copying the original.

In the last month I purchased two inspired by Gibson Epiphone Les Pauls and not much has changed from the first one.

First one I purchased was a smokehouse standard 60s and then a black custom.
I own several other Epiphones along with 20 other guitars.
What I discovered in these last two Epi’s is that a basic Epiphone factory setup appears to be virtually nonexistent on these guitars.
Overall the guitars look nice but the playability just isn’t there.

The old saying “you get what you pay for” is never more true than in this instance but for the money I would expect more from Epiphone.
These guitars do have fairly good bones to start with but it takes considerable effort to make the guitar play like it should. These two guitars had sharp fret ends and both nuts that were cut too high. The strings that come with the guitar are also complete junk. Most say that’s just to be expected so add an additional $15 for strings before you play. The strings they it came with had nicks and gouges underneath like they had been played a lot.

I spent a several of hours cleaning up and polishing all the sharp fret ends, adjusted string height and intonation and that helped some.

The nut still needs to be cut lower and I’ll do that in the next few days when I get the time.

In addition several of the tuning machines seem to have considerably slack in them so I’ll need to change those out.

The good;
There wasn’t any fret buzz so it is basically a “playable” guitar out of the box. Playable but not real good like it should.

The finish is good and the guitar overall looks nice. Only blemish “QC/QA” issue in its construction is at the bottom of the guitars where the neck meets the body. There’s a small bulge where the binding wasn’t filed/smoothed down properly but it isn’t too noticeable.

The electronics are good except for the pickup switch. The sound is also very good coming out of the guitar as the pickups are surprisingly great!

Overall the Les Paul Gibsons I have owned were very slick smooth playing instruments critically setup from the factory before they were shipped. The Epiphone doesn’t have that and doesn’t feel like that. It’s just not the polished ready to play guitar like it’s more expensive big brother and that’s probably to be expected given the difference in price.

If you can live with that and don’t mind paying extra for a “complete” setup and you don’t have $5k for a Gibson then you should be generally happy with this guitar.
But understand that a full and complete setup isn’t really optional, it’s a must so be prepared to pay extra for that if you can’t do it yourself.

Unless the setup was much better, for another 4-5 hundred bucks you can get a lower end Gibson or something more comparable that I think overall would be a much better investment.

I will probably never buy another Les Paul by Epiphone inspired by Gibson.
The main problem is a lack of a basic setup to standard specifications from the factory and if they show up wrong or out of spec at the retailer they should be fixed but in many cases this doesn’t happen. Most local shops take care of that.

We are not talking about a tailored setup here just a factory spec check/setup.
As you know there are standard baseline measurable specs for pickup height, string height, neck relief, nut height, sharp frets etc.
Those standard factory specs should already be set in the guitar and they are not at least on the two I just bought as well as on others I have purchased from a certain online retailer.

Here is what I “think” could be happening in these cases;

Epiphone sets the guitar up to specs and ships it out, those specs in the guitar “will” change by the time the guitar gets to the states because of climate/humidity changes especially where sharp frets show up.
As the green wood/neck starts to move and shrink slightly due to these changes the metal frets do not move. This results in sharp fret ends on the neck.
The point is this;

Epiphone may have and probably did set them up to specs but when they arrive in the states they are now a somewhat different guitar because of the change in climate and that’s normal and to be expected. As a result some will have sharp fret ends, some without neck relief etc etc.

When that happens they should fix it back to proper specs before it is shipped out to the customer but that isn’t happening.

I agree with most of what you're saying and I think you're right - it just boils down to the price point. That being said, it also varies with markets.

Here in Japan, Epiphones go through a second line of QC before they hit stores (my guess is because they're trying to re-establish themselves in the market). While I personally don't think it's helped a whole lot in terms of the brand image (but in certain circumstances some models have sold like hotcakes), at least most Epiphones off the shelf these days seem to play a bit better. Basically its what you're suggesting - similar to the PRS SE treatment (at least for the States). Note that PRS SEs don't get an analogous treatment when shipped to other markets - they only get the equivalent of the Sweetwater thing. The official tag line is: "every SE guitar sold in the US first comes to our Maryland factory for a strict quality inspection and set up. European-sold SE guitars are set up and inspected by PRS Europe and other SE guitars sold to the world are set up and inspected by our trusted network of PRS distributers." So if you live in a country with a shitty distributor, you're SOL (luckily here we have PRS Japan which is also quite good - but during my travels around Asia, I've seen some less than stellar ones). But then again, it goes back to the price point thing and you can only expect so much. Ironically, Epiphone seems to have one of the shittiest distributors ever in the States lol (Gibson).

I think a lot of what you're experiencing in terms of online reviews though, is the fact that there the people that are unwilling to pay $2k for owning a Gibson finding Epiphone as a more than satisfactory alternative (BTW, let's just stick with the USA line. $5k is CS - if you're paying CS price and not getting CS quality, and still pay for it and want to be happy with it, that's all on the buyer lol). They're not the same, and the QC steps are definitely different - Gibsons come plek'd whereas Epiphones can usually use a good fret polish and in some cases a quick reseating or even some minor spot leveling. But money's a real thing. A properly setup Epi, maybe with some mods, do give people that satisfaction that it can perform to the level of an expensive instrument - and people who experience that are generally more vocal than people who drop $2k for a Gibson.

I have more Gibsons and ESPs than I have Epis. But, I seldom have any desire to go on a forum to talk about those. It's like. okay. I paid $2-5k for a guitar. It damn well be good (or else I'd just feel like a fool for paying that amount). There's just not much to discuss because they've set the standard - for Epis thoguh, there's always that aspirational thing and the comparative aspect. When people can fix up an Epi and play it like they're enjoying a $2k guitar, that's actually a pretty cool thing.

 

[Darkness]

Though, with this, their prices are automatically bumped up $40 from the actual value... but you are getting an immediate setup and string up so... yeah.

I would be okay with that. Here a basic setup can cost $80-120(including new strings), which can be stupidly high in my opinion. That doesn't include nut work or fret work. On one hand I understand shops not doing a setup when stuff comes in because not everybody likes action slammed, and some can't play a guitar with .5" of action, but the shops around me don't even tune a guitar before putting them on the wall. I've never grabbed one and said "oh wow it's in tune". The sad thing is they also won't do a setup while you're there to buy, they will say come get it in a week or so.

There is one shop at a local beach that I want to pay a visit to again. They do setups for $50 and their repair prices seem very reasonable, all work done by the long-time store owner. Only trouble for me is he doesn't work weekends.

 

[Paruwi]

I have more Gibsons and ESPs than I have Epis. But, I seldom have any desire to go on a forum to talk about those. It's like. okay. I paid $2-5k for a guitar. It damn well be good (or else I'd just feel like a fool for paying that amount). There's just not much to discuss because they've set the standard - for Epis thoguh, there's always that aspirational thing and the comparative aspect.

I do know who actually does the QC on Gibsons sold in Japan.....

and this might be the reason why there are opinions that Gibsons sold in Japan are of better Quality

 

[Noodling Guitars]

I do know who actually does the QC on Gibsons sold in Japan.....

and this might be the reason why there are opinions that Gibsons sold in Japan are of better Quality

View attachment 20450

Maybe, but tbh you can't undo a lot of the stuff they do at the USA factory these days anyway (tooling marks and stuff like that). Tbh, for Gibsons, it's usually because the price commands a little better customer service at a music shop, it's not hard to get a setup bundled in with the sale. I'm guessing someone who consistently buys from Wildwood would likely have better guitars than say someone who only bought Gibsons online through Sweetwater (and still only talking about the $2k models - not the special order ones).

 

[Paruwi]

but tbh you can't undo a lot of the stuff they do at the USA factory these days anyway (tooling marks and stuff like that).

yes, but the QC can return those guitars, so they get not sold in Japan (maybe Gibson sells them elsewhere)

 

[Noodling Guitars]

yes, but the QC can return those guitars, so they get not sold in Japan (maybe Gibson sells them elsewhere)

They go to the demo and mod shop!!!

While I have bought most of mine here in the last few years, I think just in terms of what's on display at shops, the USA stuff is pretty much on par with anywhere else (though I haven't been back in the States for a few years). You could still find janky Tributes, stuff with tool marks (hence my mentioning that), minor finish flaws etc etc. I've kinda accepted that's just part of the product.

What I have found is that the Murphy Labs stuff is fairly consistent - if anything, I think we do get the nicer Murphy Labs stuff - the tops are all crazy beautiful. I didn't experience any of those ones with issues from the early run (though I may have and just thought it was part of the relicing). I think if anything, CS and MLabs is probably where they spend the most time with QC here.

 

[soulman969]

It is not a GIbson and it is not Gibson prices, so ...

Wow, Dennie that one hell of a lot to digest in just one post. Lemme begin with quoting Jean here and add this along with some of my own comments on part of what you're critiquing about Epiphones in general.



What Ben is doing is no more than I've been saying for about 10 years now. Most anyone with at least some degree of proficiency can find very well built imports for hundreds and if not thousands of $$$$ less and turn them into top shelf instruments with a little time and money.
Spend a few bucks on some decent tools luthiers themselves use and a few bucks more on worthwhile upgrades and you have virtually the same guitar as Fender or Gibson get 3x to 10x the price for depending on whether it's a production line product or from the custom shop.

 

[JamesStrawberry]

I would be okay with that. Here a basic setup can cost $80-120(including new strings), which can be stupidly high in my opinion. That doesn't include nut work or fret work. On one hand I understand shops not doing a setup when stuff comes in because not everybody likes action slammed, and some can't play a guitar with .5" of action, but the shops around me don't even tune a guitar before putting them on the wall. I've never grabbed one and said "oh wow it's in tune". The sad thing is they also won't do a setup while you're there to buy, they will say come get it in a week or so.

There is one shop at a local beach that I want to pay a visit to again. They do setups for $50 and their repair prices seem very reasonable, all work done by the long-time store owner. Only trouble for me is he doesn't work weekends.

80-120 for setups is honestly to me outrageous. I pay 30 + strings for setups on fixed bridges. 35 + strings for trems.

The original owner of the shop is a musician as well as the current owner. The original owner from the 90s gives me lessons while the current owner does the repairs lol. All weekdays the current owners wife manages the shop, and he comes in on Saturdays. Typically paying 2400 for lessons every year gives me big discounts on things and quicker repair times lol

The setup prices I gave are the prices they charge to non regular customers

 

[soulman969]

well I found a brand / factory who get it close to 100%
So it is possible - just not at factories who do 1000 or more guitars a day
with only few long-term employees

I've bought all the 16 guitars from this brand 'unseen' and online, some were used,
some were brand new.
The smaller dealers here actually do a setup and some of the guitars were not much out of tune when they arrived.

Those smaller dealers mostly do a better price than the BIG-retailers

You are most fortunate to have shops like that around you Peter.

 

[soulman969]

As far as i know the shop you buy it from is responsible for a setup on every guitar they sell, also inspecting it on any defects. That is in the contract the shop has with the manufacturer. The manufacturer can do a basic setup in the factory but after it leaves the climate controlled factory the manufacturer has no control over it. Especially when it has to get shipped overseas.

This has always been my understanding as well yet I'm fully aware that most do not. Most online dealers ship from a warehouse far distant from their home locale in order to get product into the buyers hands a quickly as possible.

Their 30-45 day return privilege is what's used as a substitute because it costs them less than unboxing each guitar and doing an inspection and setup before it ships. But even then will it be to the buyers liking or will it need more work?

If we were all buying at full retail from local shops with in house tech or luthiers we would get instruments as well like them day one. The dealer would see to that. But in the US we don't buy that way and haven't for decades past now.

So I don't get the part about it needed some work. Of course it did and so do many coming from higher end manufacturers. No one is ever gonna tell me every Gibson comes out the box like it was made by and set up by God Almighty himself.

If we never had to work on our own guitars, even new ones. a company like Music Nomad and others like Stew-Mac and Philadelphia Luthery wouldn't spend money developing tools for the amateur in home guitar tech in many of us.

And one last thing. If anyone is spending $400-$500 post purchase to get their Epiphone up to it's highest and best.....please bring me that guitar and your check for $500. I'll be more than happy to take care of all of that for you and save you the frustration.

 

[soulman969]

I do know who actually does the QC on Gibsons sold in Japan.....

and this might be the reason why there are opinions that Gibsons sold in Japan are of better Quality

View attachment 20450

You make a good point here Peter. The manufacturer who depends on his distribution network to do before a sale to a dealer what is not or could not be done before shipment from the manufacturing source is pretty much at their mercy.

I would also feel certain in saying that even if every Epi shipped to the US was inspected and flaws corrected in Nashville there would still be a certain number that buyers receive that need more work after sitting in a warehouse then being shipped to the buyer.

As Ben pointed out in his Crimson Guitars review of a Slash model LP what constitutes and entry level guitar these days in many magnitudes better than what we saw in even the more recent past. I can easily accept 90% as good as a Gibson for 1/3 the price or less.

 

[Paruwi]

I would also feel certain in saying that even if every Epi shipped to the US was inspected and flaws corrected in Nashville there would still be a certain number that buyers receive that need more work after sitting in a warehouse then being shipped to the buyer.

AFAIK big retailers like thomann get their load, mostly complete containers directly from the factory in China, there is a deal that thomann does the QC and gets the load cheaper than when Gibson/Epi had to do the QC
This might be similar wit othe big retailers in the US

 

[soulman969]

AFAIK big retailers like thomann get their load, mostly complete containers directly from the factory in China, there is a deal that thomann does the QC and gets the load cheaper than when Gibson/Epi had to do the QC
This might be similar wit othe big retailers in the US

I would think it is Peter. At least dealers like Sweetwater and others who offer a similar level of service have to be getting some kind of monetary consideration for setting up an inspection team to go over products before they're shipped. It also makes for more sense to have it done at that end after it leaves the warehouse sold and ready to ship.

 

[phonepi]

Personally, I'll stand that point differently :

- I would not buy today a brand new Gibson because they are too costy for what they are. Instead, I would consider an Epiphone. Same reflection with Fender and Squier.

- I never - repeat NEVER - saw any brand new guitar with a correct setup. It's just impossible, at least IMHO : simply already consider the rigors of transportation. At best, you have a reasonable setup, and - by my personal experience - surprisingly, a costy guitar is not necessarily well setup'ed, and not better setup'ed than a cheap one.

- That means that I setup'ed and still setup ALL my guitars - being used or brand new right out of the box. I have the tools to measure and correct the setup parameters to suit my needs, and I record these on a setup bulletin :

But it's me, OK ?

P